Was there anything I could have done for these horses?

[Glistening Rainlight]

It was years ago, so I doubt it's even the same people now, but at one point I went to Gatlinburg with a good friend of mine and we ended up going horse riding. It was maybe the second or third time I've ever been on a horse in my life, so it's not something I'm particularly familiar with, but the idea was that we would all ride on horses and be taken on a guided tour through the woods. I don't remember seeing much other than foliage. The path was kinda narrow, and could only fit one horse at a time.

More importantly though, I got seriously bad vibes from our guide. Before we started riding, he introduced us to all of the horses. It took a moment for my brain to register it, but every single horse was named after money. Ben Franklin, Cash, the one I ended up riding was named Ka-Ching. That alone was utterly disgusting to me. I ended up getting the lucky spot immediately after the guide once we were on the trail as well, so I got to listen to him ramble off endlessly. He spent the entire time complaining, complaining about absolutely everything. The dude had quite an attitude, and my horse in particular he'd labelled as a problem horse. He kept wanting to eat all of the foliage around him, the guide kept telling me to "kick him, hard, whenever he does that."

I felt so guilty the entire time, I honestly couldn't bring myself to follow this man's instructions and kick the horse's ribs as hard as the guide wanted me to. Then he went so far as to tell me that the hose could eat something poisonous and die, if I don't make him stop eating everything.

It was horrible. The entire thing, I really... I don't know much about taking care of horses - well at the time I basically knew nothing. I've been trying to learn more about it since then, and I understand the importance of good discipline, but... surely, that wasn't right?

None of what I experienced gave me confidence that these horses were being treated well. I always find myself thinking back to that experience. Maybe someone with more horse experience can tell me if it sounds suspicious or poor to them, too? And if it does, if I were to ever run into something like that again, is there anything I could do to help those horses?

Could the horse have been legitimately hungry, or do they actually just do that out of defiance sometimes? And I would imagine that if it's acting out of defiance, it's surely not happy, anyway... Or maybe it's bored, I don't know. This is why I would rather get to know a horse before riding it...

 

[ActionHank]

Not saying you're wrong with how your were reading the situation or anything but you do have to be careful about horses eating the wrong thing and them getting really sick or dying, we had that happen a while back lost her and the baby because of it.

Before we started riding, he introduced us to all of the horses. It took a moment for my brain to register it, but every single horse was named after money. Ben Franklin, Cash, the one I ended up riding was named Ka-Ching. That alone was utterly disgusting to me.

I don't really see anything wrong with naming animals after money, I mean they do it with race horses all the time.

 

[Glistening Rainlight]

Not saying you're wrong with how your were reading the situation or anything but you do have to be careful about horses eating the wrong thing and them getting really sick or dying, we had that happen a while back lost her and the baby because of it.

But telling everyone who rides it to kick it in the ribs as hard as they can to make them stop? That's the big part I have trouble with here, surely there are better ways.

 

[starscout]

But telling everyone who rides it to kick it in the ribs as hard as they can to make them stop? That's the big part I have trouble with here, surely there are better ways.

Horses are a thousand pounds of muscle. Giving them a kick won't hurt them. It's sorta like a riding crop. It just makes them stay focused. When I first started taking horseback lessons, it seemed cruel to me too, but I quickly learned that the horses were perfectly okay.

 

[Glistening Rainlight]

Well, that's kind of a relief, then.

 

[Lyrazel]

Depends on riding style. My childhood teacher was trained in Spanish school and would have been outraged about kicking hard. Humane response is to gently guide horse’s head (with reins and knee pressure) to make him turn away from the shrubbery. Letting them eat with bridle on is not good for several reasons - they can eat wrong thing and bloat; will get bit messy; and yes it is often an act of either boredom or rebellion. But riding a horse is a partnership, not an act of violently forcing the horse to obey (which will eventually backfire since they do weigh 1000 lbs to your 100+!). Knee/leg pressure should be firm and precise since it is a form of communication. Kicking is neither, and my riding teacher forbid it. If you watch skilled riders (say, dressage), you will see they carefully place legs to nudge their horses in different ways to signal what is wanted. But you will not see hard kicks, as purpose of leg pressure is to guide/communicate NOT to force. I would consider any “instructor” who advised kicking hard or pulling painfully on reins to be abusive. Horses are 1000 lbs (so kicking won’t knock them over), but their nerves and blood vessels in skin are sensitive like ours. Old school “Wild West” trainers used spurs and kicked their horses hard…but also broke them and did other truly cruel things. In modern riding this at best indicates the instructor has poor rapport with his horses and they aren’t eager to work with him. I would consider it a red flag to advise an inexperienced rider to kick hard.

We used crop more for sound effect (whistling in air) than actual hitting. Which my teacher considered counter to training. Shouldn’t be used to hit hard, as horse shouldn’t feel pain; sound is a cue like a dog whistle to emphasize attention. It was more of a tap, and only used if other signals failed (to bring distracted horse to attention).

 

[Glistening Rainlight]

Depends on riding style. My childhood teacher was trained in Spanish school and would have been outraged about kicking hard. Humane response is to gently guide horse’s head (with reins and knee pressure) to make him turn away from the shrubbery. Letting them eat with bridle on is not good for several reasons - they can eat wrong thing and bloat; will get bit messy; and yes it is often an act of either boredom or rebellion. But riding a horse is a partnership, not an act of violently forcing the horse to obey (which will eventually backfire since they do weigh 1000 lbs to your 100+!). Knee/leg pressure should be firm and precise since it is a form of communication. Kicking is neither, and my riding teacher forbid it. If you watch skilled riders (say, dressage), you will see they carefully place legs to nudge their horses in different ways to signal what is wanted. But you will not see hard kicks, as purpose of leg pressure is to guide/communicate NOT to force. I would consider any “instructor” who advised kicking hard or pulling painfully on reins to be abusive. Horses are 1000 lbs (so kicking won’t knock them over), but their nerves and blood vessels in skin are sensitive like ours. Old school “Wild West” trainers used spurs and kicked their horses hard…but also broke them and did other truly cruel things. In modern riding this at best indicates the instructor has poor rapport with his horses and they aren’t eager to work with him. I would consider it a red flag to advise an inexperienced rider to kick hard.

I guess I agree with the Spanish more then, I found myself naturally attempting to do that. I wasn't instructed on it though of course, at least as far as I can recall, and I assume the horse might need to be trained on it as well, so it wasn't as effective as I'd hoped it would be.

I genuinely did try to keep the horse from eating everything, but there was only so much I could manage, and my anxiety for the situation wasn't helping. The guy was one thing, but I didn't want this large, supposedly rebellious horse to get mad at me and act out while I was on it.

Thank you for all of your input. I will definitely take it to heart, and I will have to check out some of those videos you mentioned and watch closely with all of this in mind.

We used crop more for sound effect (whistling in air) than actual hitting. Which my teacher considered counter to training. Shouldn’t be used to hit hard, as horse shouldn’t feel pain; sound is a cue like a dog whistle to emphasize attention. It was more of a tap, and only used if other signals failed (to bring distracted horse to attention).

I have seen it used that way. I believe it was when I was binge watching a bunch of DUHorseman's content on youtube. I recall it being in his desensitization video.

 

[ActionHank]

I highly doubt a spur is going to hurt a horse, their hides are really thick and I've yet to encounter a spur that's actually sharp.

 

[Jellybean]

They may be tough and sturdy but they are sensitive, in that they can accept very subtle cues from your limbs, voice, and even your mood. That said, they also have personalities. Some are gentle and eager to please and some are stubborn and want to be boss unless you are clearly the one who is boss. It all depends on how they've been raised and what kind of interaction and training they've had with their humans, and how contented they are. Unfortunately for the situation of horses being ridden a lot by strangers, you don't get the time to establish a rapport, and the horse gets a sense of who is and isn't a masterful rider, and the bored/willful ones will totally take advantage of that. I've been on some trail rides that were lovely and at least one that was no fun at all because my horse wanted to graze at everything and was super cranky when I didn't let him. Can't blame them for wanting to eat all the time, it's how they're built, but it's annoying that this owner puts that horse out on the trail under a stranger and expects them to kick his horse hard for mastery.
On the other hand, it's also not good for owners to have a beautifully trained, obedient horse under an inexperienced rider who might yank them around, so a good trail ride place will try to get a sense for your skill level and match you up with a good partner animal.

It's been a million years since I rode and I was never an expert at it, but I've never quit being interested in horses and learning about them, so I'm curious to hear more from folks who have horses. @BethMcBeth is one at least? I know there are more horse-folks here!

 

[ActionHank]

We have horses, but I don't ride them because I haven't seen much point since I have a car.

 

[Jellybean]

I asked for an opinion from a friend who owns a horse and takes good care of him. She said that horses aren't as tender in the ribs as we are and they kick each other pretty hard. She thinks it's better to kick then to pull hard at their mouths where they are tender.

 

[Skybreeze]

As this is a subject of sensitivity and can get out of control quick I want to post a warning.

Please remember to post with common sense and with in our family friendly site rules. We will not and do not condone discussions or acts of animal cruelty here.

We understand that the topic at hand is important and can have a healthy, respectful and open discussion. Please use discretion when responding here.

 

[ActionHank]

they kick each other pretty hard.

Oh man I've watched them kick the crap out of each other, and that was just them playing around.

 

[BethMcBeth]

Alrighty buckle up friends here comes my long response.

I ride, train horses own and manage a boarding facility. Hunter, Jumpers and Eventing. I do have Western experience as well but my focus is more on the English side. I also retrain trauma cases and am currently working with a CPTSD horse.

This is Stanley an OTTB who has CPTSD he placed second at this horse trial. I have been reworking him through his trauma and accidents on the cross country course.

@Glistening Rainlight First off you are not at fault and did nothing wrong. You went for a trail ride experience. It’s hard to say wether or not the horses were in the best care when in doubt speak up and ask questions. Any horse person who immediately gets defensive and denies things has something to hide. Most horse people will talk your head off about the care and feeding programs they have their horses on.

1.) There are two kinds of horse people in the word. Crazy good and crazy bad. There’s really no inbetween.

2.) Trail guide sounds like a total jerk and basically hates his own life. You are not responsible for someone else’s poor attitude.

3.) The amount of recycled and uncreative horse names out there is well a lot. I can’t even count the amount of times horses are named Blue, Red, Cash, Kiss, Just in Time, Lucky, Bingo, Bob, Snowy etc. Maybe the names were the horses registered names or sire and dam variations. Maybe the barn tried to name all their horses after a theme. Horses names are changed all the time. Unless you name them yourself most horses just respond to a sound and tone not necessarily their “name”.

4.) A trail riding place who places inexperienced riders on a “problem horse”, is not thinking straight. There’s an old saying green horse and green ride equal black and blue. The guide should have matched you with a horse that was experienced and level headed not a “problem horse” given your limited riding experience.

5.) Kicking a horse to encourage them to walk on is not abuse. The guide should have explained how to sit up, open with your hands and squeeze with your legs. Horseback riding requires the use of your core.

6.) The horse wanting to eat all the time could be a couple different things. It could be behavioral the horse knows it can get out of work but stopping for snacks. The horse could also be limited on pasture turn out or no access to forage. The National Research Council recommends a minimum of 17 hours of turn out with access to forage per day for the average horse. Or the tack could be ill fitted.

7.) A horse ingesting enough toxins on a single trail ride is extremely low. Horses in general do not seek out toxic plants as the majority taste bitter. However when a horse is stressed or does not have access to adequate pasture/forage that is when they start to browse on plants that can be toxic.

8.) If you would like to learn more about horse behavior and some training suggestions check out SmartPak’s library. Here are some video links from their site:

Positive VS Negative Reinforcement:

Video on Positive vs Negative Reinforcement for Horses

In this video, Dr. Gray explains the differences between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement when it comes to horse training.

www.smartpakequine.com

Behaviors in Horses with Poor Fitting Saddles:

Video on Behaviors in Horses With Poor Fitting Saddles

In this video Dr. Lydia Gray explains behaviors that a horse might exhibit if he is being ridden in a saddle that doesn't fit right and how saddle fit changes.

www.smartpakequine.com

If you want to learn more about horses you are welcomed to message me. Otherwise I would suggest looking for some barns local to you and see about lessons. And not just riding lessons but horsemanship lessons. This way you can learn all about the care and wellbeing of the horse from the ground up. Many people see horses as tools and not a partnership.

I believe more in the partnership with the horse then submission and control. You can’t dominate a horse they know they are bigger then humans.

@Jellybean Thank you for the tag.

@Skybreeze Everything looks good and fine in this thread still.

 

[Leave a Whisper]

But telling everyone who rides it to kick it in the ribs as hard as they can to make them stop? That's the big part I have trouble with here, surely there are better ways.

Guide sounds like a jerk, who doesn't know what he's doing placing inexperienced riders on a horse that would be difficult for them to handle.

I was taught to squeeze with your legs or lightly tap with your heels and make a clicking or kissing sound. The way you distribute your weight also signals a horse to speed up or slow down. Although I'm the first to admit, I'm not a good rider.

Sounds like you've been given good advice by several experienced horse owners the next time you decide to go riding. The names are a non issue.

 

[Glistening Rainlight]

@BethMcBeth Thank you! This is a lot of helpful info, and I appreciate what you've had to say
I think I will take you on on the conversation as well, before long. I would love to learn more. I have actually tried to find out about stables and things near me but I haven't found anything. I think someone really nearby used to care for horses, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Seems like everyone just has cows now, and the occasional mule or donkey. Anything else I can find is far too far away.

I did find and start going through "The Horse Course" online at least, it's a free do-it-yourself kinda course. It's supposed to have instructor help but I think that's died off some time ago. It also seems to be more focused on horse care, which is what I was looking for at the time, rather than riding and things.

I also would strongly prefer a partnership, myself. I can't think of horses as tools or transport, I'd instead like to give some horses the best lives I can give them, if I ever have the chance.


The names seem to be kind of a thing I wasn't really expecting. I guess for me, the discomfort with money-based named is just because it feels like it says a lot about the mindset of the horse owners, and the way they view their horses. Maybe you can name a horse "Ka-Ching" and still take good care of it, but it feels like their motivation for keeping horses is solely how much money they can make from it. It makes me question their dedication to that horse's care and quality of life. You guys tell me on that one.

 

[MustBeJewel]

Hello, retired show-jumper and trail rider here I'll toss in my two cents, for what it's worth.

He kept wanting to eat all of the foliage around him, the guide kept telling me to "kick him, hard, whenever he does that."

I genuinely did try to keep the horse from eating everything, but there was only so much I could manage, and my anxiety for the situation wasn't helping. The guy was one thing, but I didn't want this large, supposedly rebellious horse to get mad at me and act out while I was on it.

Unfortunately for the situation of horses being ridden a lot by strangers, you don't get the time to establish a rapport, and the horse gets a sense of who is and isn't a masterful rider, and the bored/willful ones will totally take advantage of that.

I've been on many a touristy/destination trail ride before, with people who have never been on a horse, and I found this instruction to be common. In my experience, -usually- these kinds of places have what would be called "bombproof" horses--meaning, they are calm, safe, and familiar with the same trail routine they do day in and day out, to the extent that they are as safe as possible for inexperienced riders. These horses also know their riders are inexperienced and they will test them by stopping for a snack, knowing the riders lack the confidence to move them forward. Most people new to horses aren't comfortable urging a horse forward, and it can take a lot more strength than you'd think for them to even respond, depending on their training, sensitivity, and your experience, so the trail guides say to "kick" knowing that new riders are often afraid to do more than tap their heels. So the horse is perfectly happy to stand there while the rider is hesitantly and cautiously squeezing them, chomping away until either the guide comes to lead them forward, or the rider eventually squeezes or kicks with enough pressure that the horse says, "Ok, fine, I'll move along I guess. But I got my snack, hehe."

In fact, like @starscout said, some horses can be surprisingly insensitive to being urged forward. I remember one year at a summer camp, I was put on a short-legged draft horse and told, "Good luck, no one's ever gotten him past a trot." Foolish me took the bait and decided I would be the one to finally canter him that day. After he woke up (literally, he was sleeping at the mounting block) I squeezed, I clicked, I leaned forward, I moved my leg back, and even kicked with my heels until I was sweaty and out of breath, and that silly chonk of a horse was almost asleep at the walk, casually yawning and sighing like I wasn't even there. He was perfectly healthy and sound. The supervisors had a good laugh at my expense, lol. You never know how much training or which kind of training a horse has had, and some horses just don't like to go, period.

Also, if you hurt a horse, the horse will let you know. If you hurt most horses, they're going to rear, or buck, or take off with you. They aren't just going to stand there and let you hurt them.


@Lyrazel brings up an excellent point that there are multiple different schools of thought with training horses, the Spanish method mentioned being a gentler, more confidence and trust-building, growth-focused approach that tends to bring about a partnership mentality. Unfortunately, in many parts of the world (including the US), there are still some (in my opinion, archaic) schools of thought which take "breaking" horses quite literally, and use force and punishment to create a horse that performs out of fear instead of positive reinforcement.

I will have to see if I can find a good video as an example, but I've followed many people in the past who adopt mustangs from the wild in the US when their herds become overpopulated and the land can't support them. There are some truly masterful people who do an incredible job taming these horses and training them in a positive, reward-focused, empathetic way.

I asked for an opinion from a friend who owns a horse and takes good care of him. She said that horses aren't as tender in the ribs as we are and they kick each other pretty hard. She thinks it's better to kick then to pull hard at their mouths where they are tender.

If you kick a horse too hard, you're more than likely going to go flying, but if you "hang on their mouth" and use a bit improperly, you could cause them not only pain, but damage and scarring. The science of using the right type of bit (as well as a properly-fitted saddle) is something @BethMcBeth would know far more about than me, though.

The names seem to be kind of a thing I wasn't really expecting. I guess for me, the discomfort with money-based named is just because it feels like it says a lot about the mindset of the horse owners, and the way they view their horses. Maybe you can name a horse "Ka-Ching" and still take good care of it, but it feels like their motivation for keeping horses is solely how much money they can make from it. It makes me question their dedication to that horse's care and quality of life. You guys tell me on that one.

As far as their names, I wouldn't give that a second thought--I've met plenty of horses with awful names whose owners and trainers loved them dearly and care for them extremely well.

Here's a recent favorite:

 

[Leave a Whisper]

Oh yeah. There was this fat, lazy quarter horse by the name of Samson. The few times anyone ever saw him go past a trot for longer then a few short minutes was when he was spooked. He accidentally clotheslined a friend of mine with a low tree branch. He wasn't mean though, he'd come back to check on ya once he got over his fright and realized he'd left you behind. Threw me when he heard a car backfire.

 

[MustBeJewel]

Oh yeah. There was this fat, lazy quarter horse by the name of Samson. The few times anyone ever saw him go past a trot for longer then a few short minutes was when he was spooked. He accidentally clotheslined a friend of mine with a low tree branch. He wasn't mean though, he'd come back to check on ya once he got over his fright and realized he'd left you behind. Threw me when he heard a car backfire.

I love it when they come back to see if you're alive lol. I've had quite a few spills and was never graceful enough to land anywhere near my feet, so I was always just laying there staring up at the sky and questioning my life choices.

And then, out of nowhere, a giant set of nostrils whiffing in my face like, "Heeeey human? You uh, you okay down there?"

 

[Leave a Whisper]

I love it when they come back to see if you're alive lol. I've had quite a few spills and was never graceful enough to land anywhere near my feet, so I was always just laying there staring up at the sky and questioning my life choices.

And then, out of nowhere, a giant set of nostrils whiffing in my face like, "Heeeey human? You uh, you okay down there?"

No Nostrils. I'm busy having an existential crisis.